I think we maybe just talk through what you would want to talk about if you have any anything specific or if you have any questions for me,  yeah,  so  my kind of thought through all of it is, where did this empathy come from? How was it cultivated?  Essentially, and for me, that cultivation ultimately comes through unanticipated life events and just knowing that those will come out of the woodwork and when you're not anticipating them, and with that, you  learn to navigate life with more understanding and less judgment for the people around you, and, just wanting to be more eager to be there and facilitate them through their journey as well.

That's ultimately, I think, if we were to encapsulate it. That's where my thought process is. I don't know for tone for you, like how vulnerable you want me to be. I don't want it to be a downer or anything either because  life experiences are hard. But I also think that  empathy and vulnerability go hand in hand.

You can't really  get to the empathy if you're also not willing to like  Lay your heart bare sometimes. Yeah. Anyway, just where my head's at.  Yeah, I'm I'm happy to talk about any of that. It's more about what, yeah, what you're interested in and willing to share.

Happy to ask about those stories and we, you can talk about what you want. I think that's spot on. And I think we can have a great conversation about that.  I could ask other questions around it, too, of I think empathy, thinking of empathy as just the ability to connect with other people, and what some of the things are that help you stand out I think that you've got a natural skill set of building that connection with people even like in the showing interest and asking specific questions and like how to like, pull somebody in, to like into a relationship.

 And some of that's like sharing, going deep. And then some of that's probably there's like the trust that has to happen first to get there, yeah. And how you do that. So I can try to ask about some of that stuff.  And then I think the other thing that we can have fun with is just this idea of where's the, there, there's this, I think, paradox of like empathy and personal responsibility, of like, how do you maintain, your own boundaries and also not.  Over empathize where you like get in the mud with everyone that is in the mud, and can't help them out then  And like what you know, I think that you've got you know a  skill at that as well I hope so, but I wouldn't be able to begin to tell you how okay  Yeah  We could work through it.

Maybe sure. Yeah, so I mean I think like just so you know I would say,  do,  feel free to talk through anything you want, and we can,  the benefit here is we'll edit the whole thing, and I'll cut out whatever, if there are anything, if there's anything afterward that you're like, ugh, I don't think I want that out there, or whatever you just tell us, and we can snip it, or if you're like, I don't think I said that the way I, I wanted to I'm just saying all of that to just know feel free to try your best to just be unedited right now and then we can add it.

later. Anything you want cut can be cut. Okay. What else? So I guess before we get rolling is the kind of the question of at the very beginning, I'll introduce you. And I just want to know, maybe like from your perspective, like some of the Okay. Things you would want me to call out as I introduce you um, what, how do you want me to, is there anything specific you would want me to say?

What are some things that, that you would want me to bring up?  About me? Yeah. You could certainly speak to us knowing each other for a long time. 

Fine with any familial  add ons you want to put in there. But I don't really have any.  Just introduce me the way you would introduce me. Okay. Cool. No biggie. Great.  Love it.  Okay. Cool.  Are you nervous?  I'm nervous. Oh no, I'm not. Um, I'm just trying to have fun, yeah, yeah, nobody likes to do this.

That has been, can I tell you  Can I tell you that has been one of the unanticipated joys of becoming a parent.  Is learning how to play and then also releasing myself of all the perfectionism. Yeah. That I've tried to, I don't know that I've cultivated over the years. And just let it be.

Let it be fun. Without judgment. It's been so delightful. Just a random little I'll tap into mom Kate for this. There you go. Yeah. Not take it, take myself too seriously. Yeah, I, Yeah, I see that with My kids all the time. It's there's no, there's just like this sense of abandon. No, there's no need to worry about how anybody is going to feel about this art that I'm drawing right now or whatever.

And I want that to be his Ezra's inner monologue, right? If it's not, if his tendency is more like who I am, I want there to be no. Prescribed like end results and it just about you know the journey so yeah anyway Yeah  No, I think I you're yeah, I love that and the realize like I feel nerves whenever I do this stuff some there is some like nerves that come up because it's You know, it's not the normal scenario, and like, all of that but I also like, I know that, okay, I'm just like, talking to a friend, and maybe someone will listen to this, maybe it will be more cool, and that's, that's it.

So I'm glad we're getting to hang out. Me too.  

I'd love to just jump in, Kate. What I'm seeing, in our industry in general is there are a lot of what I would consider. Technicals like skills based, requirements for every job.

Must know blank system or have worked in this kind of space for X number of years. And I, what I see that's often missing is there's this like core level of skills that we need to come to the table with, if you're working in the hotel business. that aren't usually on that list. You don't see,  the technical side, but then there's this underlying  characteristics that I think our skills that we all develop.

And sometimes consciously and thoughtfully and intentionally, and sometimes it just  happens.  One of those skills  is empathy. And when I think about empathy and the impact that empathy can have on someone's career, you were the first person that came to mind. 

Very kind. And I think just for anybody that does listen to this, it may be helpful  To know some of your background. And where  you are right now and  how you got here?   I think it's A mix of a lot of different things, but I was born into a family of two very different parents I have a very gregarious if you're familiar with Enneagram type 7 Mom, and I had a very analytical, probably type five investigator father.

And it wasn't until I was a teenager, one of their co workers said to me, When I found out that your parents were married, I thought, Wow, they are polar opposites on the person, in the personality galaxy.  It had never occurred to me before that was the scenario I was born into. And for a time it was just the three of us.

So out the gate, I had very different personalities in front of me. And that was my start, starting point as a little human being. And later I had the fortune of my brother and sister joining our family and that probably played a, big role in me becoming a bit of a protector too on top of kind of navigating all these different personalities.

And then before long my very analytical dad was very curious about all of these personalities in our home. And we started doing personality testing I remember in junior high there being handwritten graphs that my dad had done posting our results as a family from our personality testing, putting them  in the bathroom on a mirror for us to just ruminate on.

 Profile, what melancholy, sanguine, choleric, traumatic, like, all of those tests. I was constantly taking personality tests in junior high. Yeah. It's really no wonder that I ended up studying psych in college but the beautiful thing about that, I feel like, is that very early on, it gave us a language for communicating our differences.

And And there was no judgment attached to that. No assessment other than this is how we come at things differently. So it made for a very sweet, happy little pod, little fan bam.  So that was my introduction, I would say, into just the different paths that we walk and the different lenses that we all have.

And. From there, I don't know life, life happens and our life experiences can just further clarify that lens. I think when we're, looking at the world around us. So I know that's a lot, but that's my starting point for you. Oh, I, I think about,  the job you're in now as a director  of revenue management. So  when you started at Hilton, you didn't ever have  this.  Background of math, analytics, finance, strategy, business. It was a psych degree and management roles in other companies before.

Which did have math.  You obviously have the skill set there. It was more about  you did very well for yourself in your roles at Hilton and continue to get promoted not by the game that many other people were playing,

some would lean more into the analytics side of things, I think you said at one point  when people needed to have a hard conversation, they would come to you because they knew that you would tell the truth and like that you would be able to communicate that thing  with compassion, but also with strength and honesty.

And so I'd love for you to \ just talk a little bit about , how your understanding of different people's personalities and your background in psych led to  you growing in your career as a leader. And what does that mean for you today?  Yeah. I'll start by saying I came into my time at Hilton, very fragile.

Literally earlier that year, it had a major life event.  The father I was just talking about ended his life. It was heartbreaking. That was also 13 years ago. So I've come a long way since that. But when I came to Hilton, I was very vulnerable and. Ready to love on people and have that in return.  And excuse me while I compose myself but yeah I suddenly when that life event occurred, I was, admitted into a club that I did not know existed an hour prior and suddenly became very aware of everyone's lived experience around me. And  at the time too, when that happened, I was as we were just talking about, and that is a scary place to be walking around with grief because you can't wear a sign on your chest that says I'm hurting, be kind to me.

But, going to Hilton, I had several months in that. Field going through my grief and then came to Hilton and then in a way it was a fresh start, but I still had that lived experience with me and was just very attuned to and aware of what other people are walking around with each day. 

And ultimately I think my time supporting hotels directly was pretty short lived. I built some great relationships with my hotel teams and there was definite trust. there and we enjoyed each other too. One of our family mottos is have fun and learn something. And so if we can be getting better every single day and having a good time doing it, then I was doing okay with my hotels.

And I think that there was a lot of trust built from that dynamic that we cultivated together. And in that I was able to implement with their buy in. More strategy that would ultimately make us more successful. But then eventually my time with Hilton transitioned into more of a leadership role, and I think that's where I was really thriving  at Hilton  because it was a chance.

to see what other people's strengths are and fan those flames where I could and help them become the best versions of themselves. And there was  no greater victory for me than to have someone I've been working with become a peer and also be in leadership as well. So yeah, it, it was.

Much like with the hotels that I was supporting when I was supporting team members, it was about developing that trust and letting them also in to my life a little bit and see, that I'm a real person with lived experience and  that I think also just by working with me, they'd understand that understanding is a really important part of my life.

I would say just a value or a  virtue that I put in high regard.  if I go back through like my religious text, I can. See the words wisdom and understanding highlighted over and over again. So I think that's been a theme and  my personal walk to is just understanding and loving on the people around us.

And when we understand and learn from them we also learn where we can push and where we shouldn't. And  working with hotels directly as I am again there are a lot of opportunities where. \ all I have is their voice on a phone, and through their voice I have to pick up on all of their cues.

And it's not uncommon for me to throw out a recommendation, get a weak buy in from said team member, and then follow up with, Okay, but what would you tell me if you said what you really thought?  And that usually gets a laugh. Yeah. And then I get what they really think. Yeah. And I think that they appreciate that as well because they know that I know them Yeah

on a level. And also that I am invested in what they think and we're better working together when we have all of the information, all of the understanding to make the best decision moving forward.  Wow. I want to go back to, where you started here. Two things, right? One is I know that growing up,  I would ask for wisdom. I think, underlining the same things, right? And I, I joke. Now about how,  I've asked God for wisdom all my life and  in response, he gives me pain, 

like we find  hardship because  that's where the wisdom lives, ? Trials and tribulations.  And just even thinking about the pain that, that you went through and how that leads to a desire for deeper understanding of yourself and of those around you and how important those relationships now become.

And , being vulnerable and having your heart be open to others also means that you're seeking out, those that are often misunderstood or not listened to and that, I know I've heard from other folks on our team, even Oh, if I need to talk to somebody that's going to really have my back and understand me Oh, I'm going to go talk to Kate.

 I want to have that conversation with her.  

You know the questions you ask someone on the phone,   I love what you're saying there. Of paying attention to what's not being said and paying attention to any signals you have, which a lot of times over the phone is much more challenging. 

And that's such a great question,  what would you tell me if you said what you really think?  I love that because  it's a reasoning question to get someone because if you just go straight at it and say, what do you really think they're probably will repeat themselves, right? 

It does disarm a little bit  the question. And yeah, I think that's the way it's phrased is meant to disarm a little bit and get the truth for sure. Yeah, there's one that I've played with around that of if somebody says, I don't know, then it's if you did know, then what would you say?

Yeah. And they think about it for a second and then it's like  something clicks and then it's Oh, I probably would say this. So I love that.  The other thing I'm thinking about that you talked already about is just this you did all of these different personality assessments and had these conversations and learned how to relate with people that are all very different and , what I'm curious about is after all of that,  what led you to the. 

 What you have found there that maybe you didn't find in  other things. Yeah, sure. I'm a type eight. So I like action.  I like to do and the Enneagram gives you a tool for doing.

It's not just a self assessment, but it's oh, you want to be healthy. Here are some things that you as a type eight can do to appear more like a type two. So when I'm healthy, I look like a helper, even though I'm A type eight and a challenger. That's my goal always.

Plus on top of it, we're talking about nine different types, right? So that's substantial and in that there's a lot of room for variability. Because we're not all just going to be cookie cutter people. And I think the Enneagram.  gives you the variety and then also gives you, like I said, that path for self improvement in ways that You know other personality tests just don't so I find it to be more comprehensive.

I guess ultimately  And fun. I just think it's fun. Yeah,  We've done exercises as a team and as a company around it because I  agree it's  internal much more so than a lot of others that are,  more motivation based than behavior based.

And that's it, the motivations. Yeah. And that stuff I would say doesn't change as much  in life that versus external behaviors change a lot of times based on circumstances. And yeah I love how. Once you realize, okay, there are like three centers of intelligence of having a head, heart, and a gut.

And how that's I feel like that's ancient  to think in that way and to realize okay, you have three types of intelligence,  in you. And you probably, it makes sense that you would have a primary center of intelligence.

It also makes sense that you would have a suppressed center of intelligence. And so that three times three is nine, right? And so as soon as I once I figured out that okay, it's not just like a number with a title and a type. And  these characteristics, it's actually about how you process information and how it comes in through, maybe it's for some, it comes through their gut and then goes to their head or, and is pushed away from their heart, or the, the, just  thinking about the, how information travels through someone is totally different,  really started to open my eyes to see how different we all are. Yeah. And there's room for everybody on that. Enneagram  for  where they are in their journey,

, so it's not even just  the type but  Where you are on your progression and Yeah, super helpful. Yeah, also big fan of brunette brown and anything that she does too. Yeah in terms of tools. So What tools come to mind like from brunette brown oh my gosh.  Her research is so specific specifically around empathy Yeah.

But also around shame. . And all of these things that are yeah.  So much of our experience. Yeah. And probably not highlighted enough. , she's so very brilliant. And if I could just sit at her feet all day, every day. Yeah. I would, shag her pickleball balls if we need to, whatever.

I could be there. I would be a happy girl. Yeah. And in tandem with her Glennon Doyle's podcast, we can do hard things. That's one of those where I feel like, there's so much content now, but you can go and search for what you're looking for, but then specifically, or less specifically, just listening to it.

On end, there are so many gems and nuggets to pull away from that, that can easily be applied to, everyday life, not just even professional life, but the whole thing. Yeah,  I think like with Brene Brown, I love just the premise of her book, Atlas of the Heart. She's saying,  this is about map making, ?

 The idea of a map isn't just a literal picture from, an aerial photography,  maps are very much about knowing How to travel what's important to focus on how to get from one place to the next. And so the information that ends up on maps is  very different than  what somebody would say maybe is photographic reality,  that it's about using the right language and helping paint the right picture of what's going on , in the human emotion or, within the human condition or however you would want to say that and how to navigate that.

And that's emotional intelligence too, right? Yeah, I think I remember like giving a talk to a management company last year and Okay. What emotion did you feel when you had a bad experience at a hotel? And 90 percent of people said  frustrated. And then I asked a couple of people to give examples and then you realize okay, one person felt embarrassed, 

because they had their family with them. One person felt. Unseen, ? Ignored.  And then I showed a slide of the feeling wheel . You've got layers of emotions, and most of us are talking about three. But there are so many more things going on for people. And a lot of times people , just don't even have the words to understand what they're experiencing.

And how important that is. , it sounds like you've really Grown up with an understanding of some of this language that has continued to build and build. And I love that you're giving people  resources , to use and look at, to cultivate this as a skill.  Yeah.

Cause it's ongoing, right? Be a student for life. Yeah, sure.  And you just said,  having a language for the emotions that you're experiencing. I have got a five and a half year old at home. So developing language is very much what we're talking about right now.

And he said something the other day, had some sort of experience.  Looked at him and I was like, hey, you know the way that you're feeling right now and he said yeah I was like, does it feel like embarrassment? And he said yeah, and I was like, that's shame   If we have open lines of communication, there's no reason for you to experience that feeling here in this home.

And we're constantly like learning about these feelings and gotta be attuned to other people and what they're experiencing. And hopefully we can give them that language too so that they can navigate things a little bit better.  Yeah, that's so good.  

, thinking back to   your career earlier where I was saying people would say, oh, if Kate, if we need something hard to say or Kate is the one. So the shame that's often attached to a difficult conversation.

 In a lot of those situations, the trust had already been developed, right? So you know, with those tough conversations, I would hope anyone I'm standing or sitting across from knows like my heart and my intention at that point. And  also I'm a very communicative person and I'm very direct.

I think that also probably comes from Being a type 8 and maybe also having a type 7 mom  but very communicative and Difficult conversation doesn't fall out  of nowhere, ? usually there's events leading up to that difficult conversation and I find that if you're direct and honest, that's actually being kind Yeah, and a lot of times people  think they're being kind when they're tiptoeing around something and being nice.

And what they're doing is being nice to handle their own feelings about the scenario. And it's wildly selfish in my opinion. Yeah. I think it is exponentially more kind to be honest with someone in love. And In those difficult conversations, they know the love part, we have the trust part. I'm telling them directly what needs to be done next, or what needs to be accomplished.

And, it's not difficult to have those conversations if the priority is the other person and not yourself. Yeah.  That's so good. I think so often, if we haven't dealt with our own shame,  Then we are also assuming someone else is going to feel shame, ?   Let's say it's  a performance related conversation and someone is not showing up on time or not getting their work done.

We assume oh, if I bring this up this person's going to feel,  bad about themselves, and  it's going to hurt them but I what you're saying is, okay, let's focus on the thing itself, and let's be clear about that, let's talk about the behavior and it has nothing to do with you as a person it's can we both be honest about what's happening here, And oftentimes that deflates the balloon and somebody else is just Oh, I'm so glad that you brought this up.

Thank you for talking to me. Yeah, absolutely. , it really can't be about ourselves, right? And it's gotta be about that other person. And also, I guess the big thing there too is, it's just a behavior modification.

Yeah. I'm not asking you to change who you are. I care about you. I'm invested in you. I'm so invested in you. I'm gonna say something that's hard to hear. Yeah. But, is gonna be for your benefit. Yeah. And if your goal is to be here, Let's talk about how we can do that because we're not there right now.

And I want to facilitate that growth to be the  employee, the team member,  that you ultimately want to become. I think all of that is so much nicer than to. Suddenly just fire someone,  that's horrible. People should , know what's being expected and also have the support to be able to meet the goals,  have you ever read the book, Nonviolent Communication?  I haven't, but it's interesting. Fascinating. I think his name is Marshall Goldsmith. But it's worth looking up and he's got \ some workbooks and frameworks and all of this, but what he talks about is oftentimes our communication to one another is violent, right?

So if I'm  putting stuff on you, then  , that's a form of violence. And  he says that most violence comes from unmet needs or desires. And  oftentimes those are unspoken. Sometimes those are like not even known. But if I can communicate that, okay, you did this and when you did this is how I felt. 

Then you're telling the truth and you're not making it about someone else. You're just saying here's how I responded, or here's how that made me feel. , that is then giving someone  the space to respond. Without saying you always do this or I need you to stop doing this or you hurt me.

None of those are true. And none of those are kind. And  back to what you were saying about being true and kind.  I like how he tries to break that out to say, okay, let's  both sit on the same side of the table and look at the thing that's happening and talk about the thing.

And it's like we're looking at a piece of art or whatever. It's like we can observe this together and see, talk about how we both see it differently. But it's not actually about  me opposing you or me doing something to you. Let's let's talk about this  from, both perspectives.

Yeah, I remember the first time I had to fire someone. And  they started crying and I started crying. And, she was like, I feel like I failed you. And I was like, I feel like I failed you.  But I went into that knowing I need to look this person in the eye and tell her the truth.

About how this isn't working and it's not, but it wasn't the truth of you're not doing the job. It was me saying, I don't think I set very clear expectations. I, and  neither of us knew what was going to happen here and the results are not where they need to be.

But  that's an example that came up for me of. Just, thinking about, telling the truth. Yeah. It's the kind thing, in my opinion. And also, for me, just throughout the course of my life, if there is a virtue that we put highest on the list, that one's the big one for me.

Which is honesty. Truth. Yeah, truth, honesty. If we're all being honest, then that's a really good place to start, if you ask me. Yeah. And I also think that words matter. We need to mean what we say and all of that. It's very important to me but I think that's, it's fundamental to relationships.

You have to have that truth and trust.  , do any examples come to mind for you of where , some of us maybe often  are not being completely honest or?  telling the truth. My thought here is if this is like a very high prioritized value for you, there's probably also a pet peeve in some way.

I've I don't like how somebody says that, or  I don't know if you have any kind of examples come to mind there. I think the big thing for me with that is if I'm observing people and I'm paying attention And, really listening to people. I can tell what you're trying to hide by the way you're trying to hide it. 

And  ultimately that makes me feel like you can't trust me with the truth. And  that makes me feel perhaps I'm not being seen completely, as someone who could, who can handle that. So that's So they start a conversation and are talking around something where you would say, can we start with what's the point? And then, yeah, why don't you go ahead and get to brass tacks? 

Okay. Go ahead and be honest with each other because yeah. Sometimes you can just see what someone's trying to hide by how they're navigating and. In that I see the truth. Why don't you tell me the truth  directly? But again, one thing that I've  I've read, about type eights is that truth is very important to us.

We give it in the way we communicate to people and we expect it in return. And. We're often disappointed. Because you expect the truth but you don't get it in return.  We treat people the way we want to be treated in that. And don't usually get treated that way in return.

Yeah. And a lot of that is because, Type 8's are maybe a little comfortable with being abrasive. Maybe a little bit more comfortable with the uncomfortable. For a lot of other people but to me the harmony is on the other side of the difficult conversation and short of having that difficult conversation or working through whatever we're trying to get around here I'm not having the harmony.

Yeah. Because I'm aware of. Yeah. That's not being said anyway that's the type eight. Yeah I think that we're getting into some interesting parts of of the Enneagram here of that's another part that I think is so interesting so valuable is just that we all have a strength and we all have a shadow, right?

And what, like you said earlier, we're all at different levels of development, too, and levels of health, and so the way I hear you talk about, Telling the truth in love is very different than maybe as somebody that is a less healthy version of an eight that is telling the truth but not doing that in a loving way.

I do that too. Sure. Yeah. I, there are days when I'm tired. And I don't have the bandwidth for that extra care and consideration,  but it's where I want to  most of the time. Yeah, and it's one of those things, from what I know about the Enneagram, it's I want you to be honest because I don't want to be surprised.

 I want to have some sense of control in my environment and my own life and if you're being dishonest with me or I don't want feel surprised. That is the least desired, kind of state for me.  Yeah. And I think part of that's about action too, right? If you have the information, if you have the truth, I can help you.

I can put some action behind this thing and then we can avoid this cataclysmic event. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Use me is basically type eight's put me in coach. Yeah. And, and bringing it back to empathy, it's this level of self awareness, how am I affected by my environment and what else is going on around me?

And  what I know that motivates me and how I process information. I also then need to understand How other people process information, what they're afraid of, what maybe their fears are so that we can together, be able to have a productive connection, yeah. Yeah. I love, I'm so glad that you've done Enneagram with our team when I was still at Hilton and managing a group of managers we did Enneagram and I felt like it made us a more collaborative.

well functioning, oiled machine as a team of, maybe it was, five or six people at that time. Yeah. So I, I love that, that we've done that here at Prosper as well. I think it really just helps color in the gaps for people. You know what I mean? Yeah. Cause, we're complicated and complex.

Individuals. Yeah. And only spending a certain amount of time together. And having a little bit more of a map as you spoke to. Yeah. I think can be really beneficial in these very collaborative working relationships.  Yeah, I totally agree.  , thinking about Brene Brown,  she talks about on the empathy side, there's a downside, or , a misconception,  maybe it's people using the word empathy and not fully meaning it , you see this happen with Enneagram twos is that you can over empathize and lose yourself, ?

And , serve others at the expense of also like losing who you are. I think about empathy in a similar way  if you tell me you're going through something. And then I get right in there with you, and we're both in the mud.  How do I help you out? And, being innate with strong empathy is  somebody with strong boundaries probably that also understands the importance of vulnerability and connection.

And I'm curious, , how you navigate that, or if you have any thoughts around , how you balance personal responsibility and empathy, or a sense of ownership and boundaries . Yeah. I'm a full on weirdo because I'm an eight wing nine. So I'm a challenger and a peacekeeper. Okay.

Which is really interesting. Yeah. Haha when I was initially studying Enneagram, did not understand those people. And then Over time realize, oh, I don't understand them because they're confusing and also because it's me and that's why I'm confusing to everyone else. 

I was not raised in a home with a lot of boundaries and those are things that I've had to. Identify and manage and place where I need them based on my own well being. And that's ultimately what it comes down to. I mentioned, um, my father's demise. So I'm very conscientious of boundaries for my mental health.

And If, if someone or something is not serving me or keeping me from becoming the best, healthiest version of myself then it's time to, assess boundaries and maybe put some up and I think that they're very hard to understand anyone running up against those boundaries, and as a person who wants to lead with empathy that, that hits me, I, but at the same time, just like I talked about, in professional relationships where, maybe it ends with a termination or something like that, we've had, we should, we would have had multiple conversations leading up to a point where a boundary is implemented for my own wellbeing.

I think that, I think it's still that truth, right? That just conversation of truth with whoever the person is or thing is that might require a boundary. Yeah. And also we don't do, I think in general people don't do enough personal inventory. Okay. Probably as a teenager I started stepping back and thinking like, okay, what is on my plate?

What am I dealing with right now and how could that be impacting maybe my stress level or something like that? And just taking a step back and just taking a look at what you've got going on can really help illuminate things. And then also help you assess whether or not a boundary is needed somewhere. 

So that's how that process has evolved for me is just The constant internal assessment probably have my analytical father to thank for that one. But yeah, constant self assessment and and then just observation as well. Yeah. And putting action, action behind the things that we are feeling, sensing in a given.

Relationship or situation. Yeah, that's very vague. I feel like, but that's how I've come to manage boundaries while still maintaining empathy. And also my own wellbeing. , I think that's that's really, that's very helpful.  I know  at some point I realized , I didn't know exactly where I end and others begin, right?

I back to Enneagram, I'm a four, so I feel things. And I very much start with feelings.  And if I'm not careful, I can just feel everything and feel other people's whatever they're going through.

And and so anyway, that's, I think about this kind of like. starting to understand independence, interdependence,  codependence, right? And  if two people are just  leaning on each other in this way,  it can be something where lose your sense of self. But I think that you're very smart about pursuing this in a way of taking inventory and understanding then here's how the different things in my life are impacting how I feel or , what my stress level is 

I have one last question, which is, if you think about empathy and the people that you've worked with does anyone come to mind, like a colleague or a mentor or someone that's reported to you that you would say is a, a star at Empathy?

. We both love Sarah Gagnard a whole lot. Yeah and I think she comes at things, from a different perspective than I do  but I took a lot from sitting at her feet for a few years and I Think the way she also lives life is she lives spherically And I think that there are a lot of benefits that she can pull in from different arenas of her life that Contribute to the empathy level that she's developed and cultivated.

 I was also just briefly thinking when you were talking about drawing the line between yourself and other people. , oh yeah, that sounds like motherhood. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where maybe I don't so much. Yeah. I feel that in most of my relationships, but when it comes to my child, I've gone through quite a bit of effort to reclaim my personal, my person while still growing this little one. 

 There's even science about . After birth we're still connected. . In a lot of ways. So it's  📍 very interesting. But yeah. You said that and immediately I clicked in.

Yeah. It's like motherhood, man, that's . A difficult thing to manage. Sarah also comes from that perspective. . . Having two of her own and Yeah. I'd be curious what her experience with that is as well.